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As unhoused person sleeps on a bench covered in a blanket printed like the U.S. flag.
As a child growing up in southwestern Pennsylvania, sociologist Celine-Marie Pascale considered her family to be middle-class, even though they faced food insecurity. This, she says, is common throughout the United States because we lack a nuanced language to talk about income, income disparities, and social class.
In Living on the Edge: When Hard Times Become a Way of Life, Pascale explores the personal impact of poverty in low-income communities while simultaneously putting economic hardship into a robust political frame. This rare focus on the daily lives of the millions of U.S. residents who live paycheck to paycheck creates a vivid indictment of capitalism and the collusion between government and corporate interests.
I recently spoke with Pascale about the research that went into her new book:
The widespread abduction and murder of Native women has largely been ignored by law enforcement and media. One woman told me she was afraid to leave her baby unattended for even the few minutes it takes to collect her mail.
Q: You conducted interviews in the Cumberland Plateau in Tennessee, in the coalfields of Kentucky, in southeastern Ohio, at the Wind River and Standing Rock Sioux reservations, and in Oakland, California. Why did you choose these places in particular?
Celine-Marie Pascale: I wanted to visit communities that had faced decades of poverty. I located communities in Appalachia through the Appalachian Regional Commission, which tracks “distressed” towns. I also knew that there were high rates of poverty on the Standing Rock and Wind River reservations, but I didn’t want the book to focus exclusively on rural poverty. Poverty affects people differently depending on where they live, so I wanted to include an urban setting and chose communities in Oakland.
Q: How did you find people to interview?
Pascale: I spent time in public places—farmer’s markets, laundromats, casinos, and parks—and started conversations with people about their lives, about what was important to them. When I invited people to do a formal, two-hour interview, I offered them a gift card for their time. I recorded all interviews and assured each person that they could erase the recording and keep the gift card if they were dissatisfied. No one asked me to do this. In fact, people tended to appreciate being able to tell their stories. My goal is always to understand people, to hear what they have to say without any judgement. I was sincerely interested in them.
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"Living on the Edge" by Celine-Marie Pascale.
Q: Did people just open up to you or did you have a liaison introducing you around?
Pascale: After establishing a casual relationship with someone, I would talk about my family and my desire to write a book about people who were struggling. I explained that neither of my parents had finished high school and that it was important for me to write a book that they could read.
Given the history of racism and biased researchers, I expected to have some difficulty securing interviews at Standing Rock and Wind River. But this wasn’t the case. I had the most trouble finding people who would agree to be interviewed in eastern Kentucky. Eventually, I met younger Kentuckians who were willing to do interviews with me.
In Oakland, I remember striking up a conversation with a younger Black man. I eventually asked him for an interview. Afterward, he laughed and said it was so unusual for an older white woman like me to just start talking to him that he had to do the interview to see what my project was about.
Q: Do people see unions as a way to improve their workplaces?
Pascale: No one I spoke to brought up unions. The people I interviewed primarily work in one or more low-wage, part-time jobs that provide no benefits. They’re unorganized. Even in areas that once had a strong union presence, like the coal fields, the unions are gone.
Q: Is any organizing going on to improve conditions?
Pascale: There is regional organizing around specific issues: pipeline protests in the Midwest and anti-prison movements in Appalachia. I hope Living on the Edge will help connect these intersecting movements and issues across the country.
Q: You write about the proliferation of dollar stores and payday lenders in poor communities. Have any supermarkets, food co-ops, or credit unions tried to undercut these exploiters?
Pascale: I don’t know. But I suspect there are pricing and supply chain issues for box stores. As for credit unions, few people I interviewed have savings accounts, so they would be unable to open accounts.
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Celine-Marie Pascale
Q: You often hear that people have to choose between decent paying jobs and health and safety, as if it is impossible to have both. Do people accept this as true?
Pascale: Most people are aware that this is a false dichotomy, although I did interview a man whose wife recently found work in an underground mine. He was really proud of her and had no worries about her health. For many people, they are fine until they’re not. They see taking coal mining jobs as a no-brainer when the only alternative is a minimum wage position at Walmart.
Q: The section of the book about missing and murdered Native women was shocking.
Pascale: The widespread abduction and murder of Native women has largely been ignored by law enforcement and media. The reality is that these disappearances cause incredible trauma for Native people. One woman told me she was afraid to leave her baby unattended for even the few minutes it takes to collect her mail. This adds enormous stress to everyday life.
Q: I was also shocked by your account of people living without indoor plumbing and running water.
Pascale: This is a lot more common than many people recognize, especially on reservations. Some people still live with dirt floors.
Q: What do you want folks to take away from Living on the Edge?
Pascale: There is a pervasive sense, especially among youth, that we need radical change. The young people I spoke with did not know anything about socialism, but when they described what they wanted and needed, it was a democratic socialist agenda.
People need jobs that pay a living wage. They need healthy food, medical care, and access to education. I see some good things happening throughout the country—water protectors, hunger strikes for the environment, rent strikes, the Black Lives Matter movement, and unionization drives. I hope readers will close Living on the Edge being willing to face concrete problems and fight for something better. Ultimately, I want the book to mobilize and empower people. Hope is a powerful political sentiment.